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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2013.05.29 04:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Wolfman wrote:Cosgar wrote:Once the desynch issues are fixed, could you please just revert the MD back to how it was in Chromosome? There was absolutely nothing wrong with the weapon. It was balanced enough for players good with it to stand out and had a huge learning curve for anyone who would think it was an "I win button." The thing is, both those issues were also present in Chromosome. With the old values and these problems fixed I think we might have a monster on our hands That's why we'll be conducting tests to see what kind of impact the fixes have on the weapons performance before we make a decision on any changes. CCP Wolfman I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to call bull*** on what you just said on the grounds of this.
CCP Remnant wrote:To be perfectly honest, I'm a little baffled at what's happened with the Mass Driver. The reason for the splash and blast range nerf was that in playtests we found the MD to be so effective that at one point almost half the people in the office were using it in battles. Clearly, that's not been the case with Uprising and after getting the engineers to go elbow deep into the code it appears there may be a few reasons beyond dry numbers that are contributing to the MDs underwhelming performance.
One, there appears to be a de-sync between client and server so that (more often than it should) the server and client think the projectile exploded in different places. They're not far off, but enough so that shots you *think* are spot on are off the mark enough to do only minor splash damage. And two, I'm told splash occlusion is getting blocked by a single player character more than it should, contributing to the "randomness" of the damage dealt and the sometimes smudgy feeling of the weapon.
I'm hesitant to rebalance the weapon until we get these issues looked at (which is happening right now).
That underlined portion openly states that you guys took a weapon that was perfectly fine outside of flawed coding and decided to nerf it on the grounds of what went on in your little playtests over actual player feedback. I've already said this before in just about every MMORPG game I've played: there's a designed purpose for a game mechanic and then there's the practical use that gets applied. Whatever you guys were doing with the MD should have no affect on how we, the players discovered the practical use. Instead of taking joy in the fact that we found a cool way to use a designed game mechanic, you gave it an unwarranted re-purpose that almost every other weapon in the game can fill better.
I've been a customer of CCP for 5 years and I can confidently say that while your company's intentions are good, your methods can be questionable at times. For every Titan that gets a much needed repurpose, a battleship loses it's purpose as an effective counter to a cruiser class vessel. You guys already went through this with the HMG and it took a threadnaught by the majority of the heavy community to see the error of your ways. Both the HMG and MD are similar in this aspect because you guys made a bunch of sweeping changes for some crazy reason and without any concern to our feedback. The only difference is the heavies got to see it coming, we had to find out on the 6th. Hell, I didn't even realize the changes until I got on here that same day because it wasn't in the patch notes.
I've been a part of this nerf/buff merry go round we've been on for so long, that I've grown jaded by any hopes of a significant change in quality of play. I started as an AR assault, and because of the nerf witch hunt that's makes forum warrioring part of the meta game, I ended up as a logibro with a MD. My weapon got nerfed to the level of a potato launcher, and my suit is probably next thanks to CPM members QQing about the entire logistics class, even though their base stats are completely horrible compared to the other suits and the other racial suit bonuses could need some work. What makes it funny is I'm a Minmatar logi, which has remained unchanged since the E3 build.
You guys have the audacity to make these huge sweeping changes, turning a deaf ear to feedback and now you want to play it safe after the fact? Really? You got an AR on the loose, that literally stops people from wanting to play because it's an exploit and you're worried about a grenade launcher that's supposed to act like a grenade launcher. At this point, I don't know if I should be laughing or looking for another game to play.
And to add insult to injury, the standard Flaylock out damages the Freedom MD and don't even get me started on Fused Locus Grenades being back despite feedback against it in the past... |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2013.05.29 10:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
Buster Friently wrote:Cosgar's Alt wrote:CCP Wolfman wrote:Cosgar wrote:Once the desynch issues are fixed, could you please just revert the MD back to how it was in Chromosome? There was absolutely nothing wrong with the weapon. It was balanced enough for players good with it to stand out and had a huge learning curve for anyone who would think it was an "I win button." The thing is, both those issues were also present in Chromosome. With the old values and these problems fixed I think we might have a monster on our hands That's why we'll be conducting tests to see what kind of impact the fixes have on the weapons performance before we make a decision on any changes. CCP Wolfman I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to call bull*** on what you just said on the grounds of this. CCP Remnant wrote:To be perfectly honest, I'm a little baffled at what's happened with the Mass Driver. The reason for the splash and blast range nerf was that in playtests we found the MD to be so effective that at one point almost half the people in the office were using it in battles. Clearly, that's not been the case with Uprising and after getting the engineers to go elbow deep into the code it appears there may be a few reasons beyond dry numbers that are contributing to the MDs underwhelming performance.
One, there appears to be a de-sync between client and server so that (more often than it should) the server and client think the projectile exploded in different places. They're not far off, but enough so that shots you *think* are spot on are off the mark enough to do only minor splash damage. And two, I'm told splash occlusion is getting blocked by a single player character more than it should, contributing to the "randomness" of the damage dealt and the sometimes smudgy feeling of the weapon.
I'm hesitant to rebalance the weapon until we get these issues looked at (which is happening right now). That underlined portion openly states that you guys took a weapon that was perfectly fine outside of flawed coding and decided to nerf it on the grounds of what went on in your little playtests over actual player feedback. I've already said this before in just about every MMORPG game I've played: there's a designed purpose for a game mechanic and then there's the practical use that gets applied. Whatever you guys were doing with the MD should have no affect on how we, the players discovered the practical use. Instead of taking joy in the fact that we found a cool way to use a designed game mechanic, you gave it an unwarranted re-purpose that almost every other weapon in the game can fill better. I've been a customer of CCP for 5 years and I can confidently say that while your company's intentions are good, your methods can be questionable at times. For every Titan that gets a much needed repurpose, a battleship loses it's purpose as an effective counter to a cruiser class vessel. You guys already went through this with the HMG and it took a threadnaught by the majority of the heavy community to see the error of your ways. Both the HMG and MD are similar in this aspect because you guys made a bunch of sweeping changes for some crazy reason and without any concern to our feedback. The only difference is the heavies got to see it coming, we had to find out on the 6th. Hell, I didn't even realize the changes until I got on here that same day because it wasn't in the patch notes.I've been a part of this nerf/buff merry go round we've been on for so long, that I've grown jaded by any hopes of a significant change in quality of play. I started as an AR assault, and because of the nerf witch hunt that's makes forum warrioring part of the meta game, I ended up as a logibro with a MD. My weapon got nerfed to the level of a potato launcher, and my suit is probably next thanks to CPM members QQing about the entire logistics class, even though their base stats are completely horrible compared to the other suits and the other racial suit bonuses could need some work. What makes it funny is I'm a Minmatar logi, which has remained unchanged since the E3 build. You guys have the audacity to make these huge sweeping changes, turning a deaf ear to feedback and now you want to play it safe after the fact? Really? You got an AR on the loose, that literally stops people from wanting to play because it's an exploit and you're worried about a grenade launcher that's supposed to act like a grenade launcher. At this point, I don't know if I should be laughing or looking for another game to play. And to add insult to injury, the standard Flaylock out damages the Freedom MD and don't even get me started on Fused Locus Grenades being back despite feedback against it in the past... Very True. CCP, if it isn't happening on Tranquility, it isn't an issue. FYI, there isn't anything wrong with the Logis (possibly Caldari bonus doesn't fit the role) but there is something wrong with the MD. Also, I'm tired of seeing the TAR fill the killfeed. Get ready to see a bunch of Fused Locus Grenades on the kill feed today since they're adding an ISK variant. |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
56
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Posted - 2013.05.30 02:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
^This! |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
83
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Posted - 2013.05.30 16:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
IR Scifi wrote:So are we still waiting on some kind of update as to how the fix is coming along? They'd rather play it safe and bring back isk fused locus grenades... |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
102
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Posted - 2013.05.31 00:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Sam Tektzby wrote:RoundEy3 wrote:Smokey don't give up it's just these forums.
Seriously these forums can be notoriously bad. I'm not kissing any a$$es here but CPP is a pretty serious company, and this game is still being worked on intensively.
I've posted on a fair number of game forums and this is the only one that has inspired me to lay down some gratuitous s**t. There are some really smart respectful people here, and some real idiots too. Just don't take it too seriously and pay attention to what happens with the game and it's changes. Patience, thick skin and or indifference will see you through. Im just curious why they put all of they power to rewriting ARs (3 times now i presume) and for MD there was just one BIG NERF an nothing else. BTW i saw somewhere they put their intntion to buff LR. I starting to feel like they want rifle-only friendly game. It's like they wish to CoDdle their player base instead of having weapons with tactical uses. |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
102
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Posted - 2013.05.31 01:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
Thor McStrut wrote:I can't dispute any of what you're saying Cross, but why is it that so many here are using the MD in logi suits?
I run an armor tanked Gal assault with complex damage mod and shield extender, flux nades and nanohive. I'm currently experimenting with a double repped and double plated suit. I personally like the double plated fit better, but I really don't have enough games in with the double repper to accurately compare.
There are so many situations where the MD is the wrong weapon to have, that I'd be pissed without my SMG. With the logi being slower and no sidearm, I'd think that any AR would be a better weapon choice for a logi. More versatile, more ammo, more even damage distribution. The MD was a good support weapon for a class that can run support. We don't want the weapon rolled back to make it easier to get kills, we want the tactical aspects back for the weapon. Defending points, scattering squads that use blob warfare, herding enemies away from a downed ally to raise them. All that is gone and the MD has been downgraded from a weapon of terror, to a potato lanucher that you could instill more fear by swinging it. |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
102
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Posted - 2013.05.31 02:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
Thor McStrut wrote:Cosgar's Alt wrote:Thor McStrut wrote:I can't dispute any of what you're saying Cross, but why is it that so many here are using the MD in logi suits?
I run an armor tanked Gal assault with complex damage mod and shield extender, flux nades and nanohive. I'm currently experimenting with a double repped and double plated suit. I personally like the double plated fit better, but I really don't have enough games in with the double repper to accurately compare.
There are so many situations where the MD is the wrong weapon to have, that I'd be pissed without my SMG. With the logi being slower and no sidearm, I'd think that any AR would be a better weapon choice for a logi. More versatile, more ammo, more even damage distribution. The MD was a good support weapon for a class that can run support. We don't want the weapon rolled back to make it easier to get kills, we want the tactical aspects back for the weapon. Defending points, scattering squads that use blob warfare, herding enemies away from a downed ally to raise them. All that is gone and the MD has been downgraded from a weapon of terror, to a potato lanucher that you could instill more fear by swinging it. I get it. As far as a weapon of terror, I still get primary'd as soon as I loose my first shell. So someone is still scared of it. I honestly feel that just having a reliable trajectory and consistent explosions that damage people within the blast radius would go very far in reviving our role. I would like to see the Chromosome arc come back, and maybe a tertiary skill to further increase the blast radius, but I'm not trying to be greedy. It's not greedy when a game mechanic is altered based on personal opinion when a company prides itself on transparency through attention to player feedback. Aside from the occasional person crying nerf that would get shut down by players that have been on both sides of the weapon, there wasn't any feedback warranting these sweeping changes. Even with the desynch issues which are entirely unrelated, having the Chrome equivalent of the MD now would only be fair since EHP had been significantly buffed and nanohives were nerfed, which starve the weapon as well. At the very least, we would have some semblance of a fighting chance. Instead, we get stuck with a lower ROF AR that just happens to shoot grenades when they want to work when a sidearm with similar properties does the job better. Also, after next week our discontent will fall on blind eyes when fused locus grenades begin selling for in game currency. |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
102
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Posted - 2013.05.31 03:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
Thor McStrut wrote:Cosgar's Alt wrote: It's not greedy when a game mechanic is altered based on personal opinion when a company prides itself on transparency through attention to player feedback. Aside from the occasional person crying nerf that would get shut down by players that have been on both sides of the weapon, there wasn't any feedback warranting these sweeping changes. Even with the desynch issues which are entirely unrelated, having the Chrome equivalent of the MD now would only be fair since EHP had been significantly buffed and nanohives were nerfed, which starve the weapon as well. At the very least, we would have some semblance of a fighting chance. Instead, we get stuck with a lower ROF AR that just happens to shoot grenades when they want to work when a sidearm with similar properties does the job better. Also, after next week our discontent will fall on blind eyes when fused locus grenades begin selling for in game currency.
I've not worked with the Flaylock yet, but I've been considering it. I hate fused grenades too, but they are only comparable in CQC. You can't throw a nade as far or as accurately as you can with the MD. The fact that they are both in the isk and aur market is a terrible decision, but that's getting off topic. I don't know, I'm not here to argue with you guys. I just feel that we need to moderate our requests, since CCP can't moderate their balancing. Demanding big sweeping changes, or full reverts is counter productive, and often ends with a weapon being severely OP'd or drastically nerfed. We can't possibly know how a weapon will perform and without a test server available to the public, I think we need to go about making changes little by little. The damage has already been done. Playing it safe after making a sweeping change is like an alcoholic going off the wagon and claiming he'll be fine from the next day forward. Like that person with alcoholism needing to go through treatment again, the MD needs to go back to basics and be adjusted from there. Keep in mind that while all this is going on, we have the TAR and the Caldar logis's racial bonus which are being abused to exploitative levels. |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
107
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Posted - 2013.05.31 05:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
Look at how few people used it in Chrome. I don't think we'll ever have to worry about the MD being the FotM... ever.... |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
109
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Posted - 2013.05.31 05:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
Smoky, slow your roll. You're doing it again... |
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Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
116
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Posted - 2013.05.31 09:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
*sigh* Memories... |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
116
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Posted - 2013.05.31 10:00:00 -
[12] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Mass driver is a dead weapon, just like the laser rifle now. Man, I'm almost tempted to use my respec just to focus on my logi suit, modules, equipment, and core skills with 0 SP in a weapon and use the Exile 24/7. ARs are so powerful compared to everything else that you don't even need SP invested in them. |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
135
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Posted - 2013.05.31 21:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
Link
Konohamaru Sarutobi wrote:First of all, I didn't spec into Caldari Logi Suit (or any Logi suit) and I didn't spec into Duvolle Tactical Assault Rifle.
Said it this. My question is:
Anytime that CCP makes change in the game, like change the weapons stats, suits stats, sights, HAVs, LAVs, Dropships, etc, will they make a respec?
Because people spend time to spec into something that they like to use, and if CCP changes those things and then people don't feel good with those things, well... that's ****.
I would love to know is that the way of CCP. Make a bad development and then change all the game without compensate the players that wasted time... Or make a bad development, change the whole game and then give to the players the possibility to start again?
What's the way CCP?
Because is very possible that CCP Nerfer makes changes in LAVs, TAR, Logies, etc. And then what? What will happen with those guys?
PS: CPMs don't respond to this thread till you get better in the game and learn more about the gameplay. Thank you.
Bye. Kisses.
Cosgar's Alt wrote:I've been wondering the same thing. Listing nerfs in the patch notes is one thing, but the ninja nerfs that occur are very off putting in a game like this where your investments aren't meant to be refunded and you have to live with that choice investment. What's even more off putting, and down right discourages me from opening my wallet, let alone my client is the motivation behind said ninja nerfs: CCP Remnant wrote:KA24DERT wrote:SirManBoy wrote:The mass driver needs some serious TLC. Some arbitrary 10% buff isn't going to adequately address its extensive list of new shortcomings, including its damage (it needs far more than a 10% buff), its splash area, and its aiming. In its current state, the mass driver is a hot mess that no longer commands any respect on the battlefield, which means all of its tactical value is gone. This is especially true for logi bros who used it to enhance their support role. A mass driver used to scare people away long enough to make revives, throw down nanos, and make repairs. This is no longer the case. Yeah, the MD has gotten hit pretty hard: MD Specific: 1) Splash Radius 2) Misleading Smoke Trail 3) Damage nerf 4) Range Nerf General, but hits MD hard: 1) Nanohive Nerf (my smg kills have gone way up.) This has changed the weapon entirely. People can hide behind obstacles and be safe, People can run from cover to cover at a distance and be safe. People can charge at me and absorb my damage while taking me down (easier than before). I've adjusted my playstyle to this. And am now finding myself charging into groups of enemies and using the MD like a blind man's shotgun. It works, but i'm not sure that's the weapon's intended role. If the 10% damage buff is across the board, then bringing back the splash radius and increasing the range will bring this weapon back up to snuff. To be perfectly honest, I'm a little baffled at what's happened with the Mass Driver. The reason for the splash and blast range nerf was that in playtests we found the MD to be so effective that at one point almost half the people in the office were using it in battles. Clearly, that's not been the case with Uprising and after getting the engineers to go elbow deep into the code it appears there may be a few reasons beyond dry numbers that are contributing to the MDs underwhelming performance. One, there appears to be a de-sync between client and server so that (more often than it should) the server and client think the projectile exploded in different places. They're not far off, but enough so that shots you *think* are spot on are off the mark enough to do only minor splash damage. And two, I'm told splash occlusion is getting blocked by a single player character more than it should, contributing to the "randomness" of the damage dealt and the sometimes smudgy feeling of the weapon. I'm hesitant to rebalance the weapon until we get these issues looked at (which is happening right now). That portion in the quote which I underlined has been rubbing me the wrong way since I've first seen this quote. How many other game mechanics where changed on a whim based on events that didn't occur on tranquility? More importantly, how many more will change in this context? Am I going to suddenly log in one day and find out that all my fittings are invalid because my Minmatar logi suit has been confined to a sidearm based on how many people are using the suit on a dev server? Outside of wanting to keep in touch with my friends in game, I have severely cut down my play time because of this. It's not fair for players that invest millions of SP into their respective roles which they find fun to suddenly have them changed overnight. I've lost a lot of faith in Dust 514 changing for the better when I discovered the grounds behind some of these more drastic changes and I know others that have too. This cloak and dagger practice of "rebalancing" needs to stop and significant changes to game mechanics need to be communicated or this game really will die before it's true potential can shine. I've hand waved many a change in this game that let a bad taste in my mouth, but this is the number one thing that has really disappointed me. Honestly, if it weren't for the optional skill respec, which was unrelated to this occurrence, I would have since left, biomassing my avatar to prevent temptation of coming back.
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Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
173
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Posted - 2013.06.01 03:01:00 -
[14] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:I realize this is not a comment which will be exclusive to the Mass Driver but it is relevant to the Mass Driver situation. Hold for triple layered font effects of emphasis.
All "ninja" nerfs/buffs most unequivocally cease!
Listed in the stats for the weapon etc is also patendtly inadquate, every time there is a change to the stats of any weapon, suit, skill, et al the specific details need to be listed in a patch notes thread along with an in game notice that such a change has been made and to see the thread for details. Ideally all smaller changes (read those which are not a new build) would be sent out to all characters via an in game mail message as well so that those PS3 users who do not possess ready access to a computer are not left out of the loop.
Dealing with having a weapon toned down due to it being overpowered (even if I've spent SP into it) is fine. No respec needed, no complaints. However dealing with any piece of gear or any skill which has been altered without specific notice shifts the burden of responsibility to the developers rather than the players for it is patently unreasonable to expect every player to review every skill and bit of gear they use each and every time they log in to play the game.
0.02 ISK Cross You need to make a topic on this. Preferably general, since they're going to wind up moving it to the graveyard feedback anyway. Might as well give it some exposure. Just add a little more background on the situation, including the HMG, pistols, and all vehicles. All of the above suffered significant ninja nerfs. |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
177
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Posted - 2013.06.01 04:01:00 -
[15] - Quote
You know, I should have shared this from the start. I'm a very, very forgiving person and I don't hold grudges. You make a mistake doing what you thought was right at the time? No big deal, nobody's perfect. But what you do to make things right is the true sign of character. All I've seen is a lot of talk about playing it safe after the damage was done and tight lips afterwards. I have money and a stable internet connection. Make things right and I'll buy your boosters and log in religiously like it never happened and we can put all this behind us. This isn't me bargaining, this is the truth. You want me to continue being a customer, give me some customer service. |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
179
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Posted - 2013.06.01 05:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
xSir Campsalotx wrote:I've seen the proto type mass drivers being used with caldari logi to good effect (not great) but I've seen these guys do some mean damage. Albeit it's most likely to them stacking damage mods and it seemed like they always had high ground. I'm a heavy and the HMG is not as good as it once was but works good in its cqc niche. We both got hit uprising and CCP has somewhat rectified the hard nerf but we are limited. I hope CCP fixes your MD problem but try focusing on being on high ground it seems to boost MD power just my observation. Lol still kill armor tankers pretty decent.
Your support is appreciated. I'm glad that your weapon was brought back to some semblance of usefulness. In fact, not too long ago I was in the city map and there was a heavy that was wrecking out team like it was his job. My whole squad was cursing though our teeth at this guy until one guy shouted "These goddamned heavies need to be nerfed!"
Right then and there, I knew you guys were in good shape again. Should another OP ever pop up these forums to declare your effectiveness on the battlefield be reduced again, I'll make sure I do my part to defend your role as I hope you do the same with mine. Us niche characters need to stick together and preserve our different playstyles for the sake of balance and variety in this game. |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
183
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Posted - 2013.06.01 06:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
More classic MD footage... |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
192
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Posted - 2013.06.01 12:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
Judging by how silent CCP is and the lack of posts from CPM members, (Even IWS is silent, which is scary) I'm expecting a big announcement on Monday on the state of the entire game. |
Cosgar's Alt
Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic
217
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Posted - 2013.06.02 01:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
TonYtigr wrote:Great idea for the MD channel. I suggest ''MDunited''. I'm gonna be there! How about.... Massholes |
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